Club Joule in Osaka Japan is not a likely place to meet a game developer. However, Tetsuya Mizuguchi is not a regular game developer. Critically lauded for creating everything from pure arcade racers to the music-game hybrids that have become his trademark, Mizuguchi is basking in the freedom of his new company and the creative freedom it affords him. JP Kellams sits down for a conversation with Mizuguchi-san to discuss everything from Pong and Rez to Karaoke bars and Beatniks.

Note: This interview was conducted in English and Japanese. I actually prefer Mizuguchi-san’s English responses despite the fact he is a non-native speaker.

TOKYOPIA: In a previous interview, you spoke about the spiritual successor to Rez, and how you could make the next Rez. Is Lumines an extention of Rez? Is Lumines the next Rez?
MIZUGUCHI: Not extension. Rez is Rez. Lumines is Lumines. A new experience. But, the basic concept I got from Wassily Kandinsky, the painter from 100 years ago. His concept, was synaesthesia, the synchro - that kind of experience. So every sound has a color, the lumen, and shape. So I really wanted to succeed with that kind of concept to the new medium of the PSP. I wanted to change the game design also. Rez is a very synaesthesic experience, its kinda fun, but Lumines is very light. (He is referring to the experience of the screen on the PSP)

TOKYOPIA: You used licensed music in Lumines from Mondo Grosso, the Adam Freeland track in Rez, and even an early Yoji Biomehanika track in Sega Rally.
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah. Yeah.

TOKYOPIA: Well, you have used this music, but you have never made a game filled with licensed tracks. It has always been a synaesthesic experience. However, since music is so important to your games, would you ever do something with all licensed music, like a Bemani game? Your games take music, but they don't take music in the direction normal music games go.
MIZUGUCHI: A bemani type of game, it uses music, but games and music are different to me. So I really want to make the very high level chemical reaction of the music and the gameplay. The mixture you know. I really think really deeply about using music and sound on the game design. It is kinda like chemistry, so that’s the concept.

TOKYOPIA: You have said in a Japanese interview that you started the programming and meetings for Lumines in a Karaoke box. Can you talk about the early days of Lumines?
MIZUGUCHI: I left SEGA, and when I left SEGA my partner and I didn't have a place, an office. But we had to make the concept, so we went to a Karaoke box. It is very big and we could make noises and sound. Yeah, it is a very good memory, because you know, we didn't have a studio at the time.

TOKYOPIA: Did you sing?
MIZUGUCHI: *Laughs* No no no no no.... No singing.

TOKYOPIA: Lumines was your first puzzle game?
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah

TOKYOPIA: Was it what you expected? Making a puzzle game versus games like Sega Rally or Space Channel 5?
MIZUGUCHI: A puzzle game is a very simple game design, so it wasn't so difficult to design it. So we had many prototypes, and we took a long time to decide the archetype of Lumines.

TOKYOPIA: You are definitely working towards a US release for Lumines but you can't announce anything yet?
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah.

TOKYOPIA: Good, I know a lot of people will personally be very happy about that.
MIZUGUCHI: I hope so.

TOKYOPIA: A lot of owners of Lumines have asked a question about versus mode. Basically, it is very very hard! Why is there no continue in versus mode?
MIZUGUCHI: *laughs* I'm not sure.

TOKYOPIA: You should put it in for the US version.
MIZUGUCHI: Hmmm, we will have to think about that.

TOKYOPIA: I want to talk about Q Entertainment now. Not Q Games. I have to be clear for a friend, Dylan.
MIZUGUCHI: In Kyoto.

TOKYOPIA: Yeah, I want to make it clear that you are Q Entertainment and not Q Games.
MIZUGUCHI: *laughs* Yeah Yeah Yeah!
TOKYOPIA: Starting your own company and being CCO, has it made you more creative, this new freedom.
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah. That’s right. The freedom. I want to do the design, not the management. So I don’t want to manage the company.

TOKYOPIA: Like you did with UGA.
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah so I want to focus on the creation. The very creative side. I wanted to invite the CEO [to Q Entertainment]. In August, we got the CEO, Shuji Utsumi from Disney Interactive. He was in SEGA and Sony (SCE America), so he is kinda my partner from a long long time ago. I am very happy that we can do many things [together].

TOKYOPIA: In talking with some of your staff members, everyone on your staff seems 100% behind the game and it seems everyone who works for you is extremely loyal to you and extremely happy to work with you. Is there anything special you do as CCO to make everyone so excited to be working with you?
MIZUGUCHI: I don’t know why, I don’t know how. I always try to enjoy making the game. That’s it. We always have some new challenge – new technology, new game design, new expression. So maybe [that is it], but I don’t exactly why. *pauses* yeah.

TOKYOPIA: What is your goal with Q?
MIZUGUCHI: No goal yet, but we are talking about how we should be a digital backpacker.

TOKYOPIA: Like going from concept to concept, idea to idea?
MIZUGUCHI: No no no. We have to go everywhere. Traveling around the world, traveling around any media, including the games of the future. So we are looking for “What is the future?” Q means Quest. Quest for the Future Entertainment. So there is no limit here.

TOKYOPIA: So you might not always be about games. If you find some kind of new entertainment you might go to that?
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah. That’s right.

TOKYOPIA: How did ((QB)) start? Did you meet with the owner of Bandai? How did ((QB)) happen?
MIZUGUCHI: When I left SEGA, I met Unozawa-san who is the head of Bandai Creative. So I told him the concept of Lumines and Meteos, and at the time they were very early concepts, but he really loved [them]. That was the start, very easy you know. Unozawa-san understood these very creative concepts, and what is important to create new things. We have chemistry. So Q and the Bandai, ((QB)) actually means Quest Beat. I love Beatniks.

TOKYOPIA: That is interesting because you seem so interested in Electronic music. Are you a digital beatnik?
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah. That is 21st century.

TOKYOPIA: After Lumines and Meteos, you have said in other interviews in Japanese media that you have lots of ideas and you want to do 4 games a year, but this year you want to do more. When will you be able to tell us more about these new games?
MIZUGUCHI: *Excitedly* SOON.

TOKYOPIA: Will it be something you will announce at GDC or E3, or even sooner than that?
MIZUGUCHI: Maybe E3, yes.

TOKYOPIA: At the REZ final party, there was a version of REZ with Underworld, Fatboy Slim, etc. What happened to this version of the game? Were you unable to acquire the rights to the songs? Can you tell us what happened to that version of the game?
MIZUGUCHI: No comment. *laughs*

TOKYOPIA: You have said previously that REZ was your favorite game that you have ever made. Is REZ still your favorite game or is Lumines your new favorite game?
MIZUGUCHI: *hahaha* Good Question. I love Lumines. [I love] the PSP also. It’s kinda an interactive iPod or interactive Walkman. I love this style. I love REZ also, of course. I want to look for the future possibilities always.

TOKYOPIA: Is the last game that you have just finished always your favorite?
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah last game is the best game, but I haven’t made the best game yet.

TOKYOPIA: It’s still coming?
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah it’s still coming. I hope so.

TOKYOPIA: What is the best game?
MIZUGUCHI: I don’t know. *laughs* The next game. *laughs*

TOKYOPIA: The next game is the best game.
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah. Never-ending story.

TOKYOPIA: Ok. Meteos. You are making a game with Sakurai-san, the designer of Kirby among other games. How did this collaboration come about?
MIZUGUCHI: When I left SEGA, he left HAL laboratory at almost the same time. At the time, we had dinner; lunch, tea. We discussed future games on PSP, Nintendo DS, and the new mobile types of games. I really love 24. It is a real time drama. I watched that drama, and I felt the human brain changing from single task to multitask. In Japan, some young couples have dates and talk via email on mobile phones. So everyone can do the same things, many things, at the same time. You know what I mean?

TOKYOPIA: Yeah, especially in Japan, with Keitai (mobile phones) you are always connected.
MIZUGUCHI: Well some people are playing games with chat. [From] that kind of feeling, I wanted to design a new type of game. In Meteos, using the touch pen, you have to do many many things. Like Tetris or even Lumines, [they] exist as a [standard] puzzle game. I don’t know why, but they have one block falling down and then the next block falling down. But Meteos has many many blocks falling at the same time. That concept, I told it to [Sakurai-san], and he took further with the touch pen. [Connecting the blocks and shooting them in the air]. The launch, kinda like a space shuttle. I heard that concept and [thought] “Wow. That is new. Simple, but new.” So we got very excited, [and said] “Let’s make the prototype.” When we were done and finished [with] the prototype, [it] was so fun.

TOKYOPIA: How often does he work with the team at Q?
MIZUGUCHI: He is freelance. The ((qb)) concept is to collaborate with other creators and artists. Sakurai-san’s case is one of the ((qb)) concepts.

TOKYOPIA: In the Japanese interview with Famitsu, you said that ((qb)) was going to be about collaborating with people not just inside the gaming industry but outside the industry as well.
MIZUGUCHI: I want to connect the gaming industry people and other kinds of people.

TOKYOPIA: Like Osawa-san (Mondo Grosso)?
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah. Like Osawa-san or maybe visualists. It is possible. It is fun.

TOKYOPIA: Meteos comes out in Feb. in Japan, but will it come out in the US as well?
MIZUGUCHI: We haven’t decided yet. Maybe soon.

TOKYOPIA: Now some questions about you? What are some of the things you do for fun? Your hobbies. You talk about them sometimes in your blog (http://www.mizuguchi.biz) but most of the time it is in Japanese. What are some of the things you do for fun?
MIZUGUCHI: I like traveling. No plans. Just go.

TOKYOPIA: Do you take your iPod with you?
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah.

TOKYOPIA: What is in it? What do you listen to?
MIZUGUCHI: Every kind of music. From Classic, Rock, Pop, Instrumental, Dance music.

TOKYOPIA: If you had to say what your favorite music is? One artist, one song?
MIZUGUCHI: I really like the Chemical Brothers. Have you seen the DVD? The history one? That’s great. They are always chasing the visual and music chemical reaction. So I feel a great sympathy with them, and also Mondo Grosso.

TOKYOPIA: I’m a big fan as well.
MIZUGUCHI: The first level of Lumines. Shinin’ is actually my favorite.

TOKYOPIA: Mine is the last track on Next Wave, Hikari.
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah, so with Shinin’ and Hikari, Mondo Grosso always makes the music [about] light and color. An experience. The feeling of music. I really love Shinin’, and I wanted to use Shinin’ in Lumines. So I went to his place and I told him, “I want to use this music in my game! Please!” He said “Ok Ok! Do that!”

TOKYOPIA: Were you nervous to ask him?
MIZUGUCHI: No. He is a really nice guy.

TOKYOPIA: Lately in Japan there has been a Retro game revival. Everyone loves Famicom games again, and I was wondering if there were any old games that really influenced you when you were younger to become a game designer.
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah. My first game. The first game I played was PONG. I went to my friend’s house, I was 10 years old, and I was really surprised. That experience was in my memory very deeply. It is very difficult to explain. I really love the classic games, and I try to take the situations for those games. Early Macintosh games as well, like Eliza or Mindmirror. The concepts are wonderful. Meteos is kinda like Missile Command. I love that game.

TOKYOPIA: You have made a rail shooter that is not a shooter, a music puzzle game that is not all puzzle game, a music dancing game that really isn’t a music dancing game, and one of the purest arcade racers ever. You have bounced between many different genres and I was wondering if there were any genres that you really want to try that you haven’t tried yet.
MIZUGUCHI: I don’t care about genre. I hope to challenge any style. The most important thing to me is what is fun. I will try the next genre in my next game.

TOKYOPIA: What kind of balance do you try to find between conventional games and games that you think are fun. For instance, Rez is not a conventional game, and you have talked about this before, but it is a game that seems to take a lot of time for people to “get”. Lumines, until people understand how they are interacting with the music and the timeline, it seems that it takes them a while to “get it”. Do you think about what a user expects conventionally when making a game?
MIZUGUCHI: I try to make a game that everyone can play without reading the manual. I think so.

TOKYOPIA: You can pick up and play games like Rez or Lumines, but a lot of the discussion with Rez and Lumines when they were released was the difference between people who get it and people who don’t. It is funny because for Lumines you can see scores progress as people come to a greater understanding of the game. When a user picks up the machine, I feel there is a contract between you the designer and me the user. I have to have faith in [a Tetsuya Mizuguchi] design. However, when you pick up the controller for a game like Shin Sangoku Musou, it is immediately apparent. However, you games have always had a process of discovery and I was wondering if that process is something you actively think about?
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah. That process is important to me. That process is fun. Discovering something is kinda the journey.

TOKYOPIA: Q right now seems very interested in portable games. Are you interested in console games for the new machines as well?
MIZUGUCHI: Hmmmmmm. Yes.

TOKYOPIA: A lot of talk right now is about how the budgets of games for these new consoles are going to be very expensive. Your games have been critically acclaimed but they haven’t always sold as well as many would have wanted. Do you think that if you keep the budget small and keep the game focused that you can still create the kind of experimental games that you are famous for and still survive as a business.
MIZUGUCHI: Yes.

TOKYOPIA: Is the key going to be keeping the budget small?
MIZUGUCHI: I think that it is a new challenge, [finding] a new experience. Kinda like Lumines. We chose to keep the budget very small, so that is very important. I don’t want to have the pressure of “We have to sell, we have to sell.” That kind of pressure changes the game, [down to] the basic concept. So a game like Lumines, we didn’t have the pressure of that kind of thing. A big game, like 100 people, like a Final Fantasy type game - That kind of game is also important, but if I am going to make that type of game, I have to think about how we are going to make the big sales. However the intermediate. . . I am open to very small games or very big games. No middle.

TOKYOPIA: Many people have talked about how the Japanese industry is going downhill, not in creativity but in sales. However, most of the best selling games are all sequels. Do you think that Japanese designers need to make this decision to go small or go big, but make the smaller games more creative? Do you want to see an industry without the middle ground, where you have some large titles, but many smaller games that are more creative?
MIZUGUCHI: Yeah. For this industry, we need both. The big game has to get the big money, big sales. Yet for the artist and game designers, we need some challenges, so making the small type games should be good for this challenge.

TOKYOPIA: Thank you very much.

After this interview, I briefly met Mondo Grosso and also had a chance to talk with the lovely Ms. Eri Nobuchika, whose songs are featured so prominently in Lumines. The love for Lumines in this group is apparent, as Mondo Grosso immediately grabbed a PSP and was playing Lumines before his set. Despite her young age (19), Nobuchika-san was not only beautiful, but excited about the exposure from the game and even more excited that she has overseas fans. During our conversation, I asked her whether she has heard her songs in Lumines. Although not recorded this is a recollection of the exchange.

TOKYOPIA: So, have you played Lumines? Do you like it?
NOBUCHIKA: Yeah. It is a lot of fun.
TOKYOPIA: Have you heard your own songs in the game yet?
NOBUCHIKA: Yeah, they let me play it with a memory stick that had my songs.
MIZUGUCHI: When you play your own songs, do you sing along?
NOBUCHIKA: *laughs* Hahaha. Yeah I do. But the game is based on loops and when it loops in a weird place I go “HUH??!?” *everyone laughs* (Note: maybe you had to be there.)

Pictures coming soon.

Tokyopia would like to thank Ando Samu at Jamsworks for arranging this interview, as well as Shuji Utsumi, Tetsuya Mizuguchi, the staff at Q Entertainment, Shinichi Osawa, Eri Nobuchika, Sony Music, and the staff at Club Joule.

[ Email JP Kellams ]